North Dakota Commission on Education Improvement
Commission Meeting Minutes
September 3, 2008
9:00 a.m.
Roughrider Room - State Capitol
The Chairman, Lieutenant Governor Jack Dalrymple, called a meeting of the North Dakota Commission on Education Improvement to order at 9:03 a.m.
Commission members in attendance included Lt. Gov. Jack Dalrymple, Rep. Rae Ann Kelsch, Sen. Tim Flakoll, Rep. David Monson, Paul Stremick, Mark Lemer, Doug Johnson, Jon Martinson, Sen. O’Connell, Greg Burns, Wayne Sanstead, Jack Maus, Martin Schock, and Scott Privratsky.
After reviewing and amending the August 6th Commission meeting minutes (see attached), Sen. O’Connell moved to accept the minutes; Rep. Monson seconded and the motion was carried.
The Lt. Governor started the meeting with Commission business. Dates for future Commission meetings were also discussed: October 7th meeting will be in Minot and November 6th meeting will be in Bismarck.
The Lt. Governor welcomed Dr. Allan Odden and Larry Picus, the educational adequacy consultants who were contracted by the Commission to conduct an evidence based study of North Dakota’s public elementary and secondary education and funding. Lt. Governor Dalrymple turned the meeting over to Dr. Odden and Larry Picus for their presentation of the final report of “Funding Schools Adequately in North Dakota” (attached). Dr. Allan Odden and Larry Picus began their presentation with a quick description of ND school finance, a brief discussion of student performance, and a detailed initial discussion of the evidence based model (attached). The goals of the report were to: identify the resources all districts and schools need to “double” student performance in the next 4-6 years; reduce the achievement gap; move from “good” to “great”; student performance to rival top performing nations, and grow the North Dakota’s economy to compete globally.
Sen. O’Connell asked what kind of qualification/education tutors need. Odden responded that schools that provide money for tutors but don’t require tutors, do not see good quality tutors. Odden also suggested use of the discretionary money to train people who could easily move into tutor roles. A regional training program for tutors and coaches could be developed. He added that over a two year time period a lot of tutors and instructional coaches could be trained.
The Lt. Governor discussed a program for mentors. The program’s concept would initially begin with a state program to help train, follow though, and create a report on mentor activities. This seemed like the best way to begin, a state grant with a simple application. The Lt. Governor said we could grow faster this way but also keep some accountability for funding. The Lt. Governor also asked about an instructional coach pilot program where schools would be encouraged to share teachers who could serve as coaches. The Lt. Governor said the Commission has not talked about a tutor program. Odden said he liked a state program for tutors and instructional coaches. WY has a good program and AK is also moving toward a state grant program. Odden said, “if you can fund a state program, I would move beyond pilot program.” Odden said he would encourage the Commission to move quickly to create programs, because there needs to be more tutors and instructional coaches. The Lt. Governor said he agreed there should be tutors and instructional coaches in each school, but we might get some resistance, so we need to start with a transition program.
Regarding slide 9, the Lt. Governor said the Commission is waiting for new information on the ELL program utilization and the new special education formula for year one. This will give us more of an idea of what we are talking about for factors.
Odden said many districts are now using common unit credits and end of course exams. This way you can look how all kids are doing on the same test and it shows what is happening classroom by classroom. The Lt. Governor said the per student payment is 50% of cost and is at an adequate spending level. Lemer asked if these numbers are entirely scaled. For example if we decided to change the factor, could we do that math and get a new factor? Odden responded yes.
The Lt. Governor discussed some caveats. If the Commission were to go forward and implement everything Picus and Associates recommends, we are talking about a lot more money. This extra money would come from funds that are already being used elsewhere. The Lt. Governor asked which cost categories are not getting results. Odden said there are three areas: 1) class size, 2) too many electives, and 3) instructional aids.
The Lt. Governor said there are other cost categories: recommendations for extra-curricular activities and transportation. There is an ambitious amount of money for extra-curricular activities and transportation is not part of expenses. Transportation cost is not recommended to be added to the base figure. Lemer said an outline of transportation costs should be created. There needs to be a local option for transportation and extra-curricular activities. Lemer said this seems like a fully funded model and we need to address transportation and extra activities in the model. We need to give districts extra flexibility. Burns said the $7,293 figure is based on 06-07 dollars and needs to be inflated for 09-10 dollars. Burns also said there are no salary increases budgeted in this information. Odden said that was not part of the study. Monson asked how much money was for capital construction and heating. Odden said they did put in a number for operation and maintenance. He added there was also money for technology - $250/student. The Lt. Governor said for maintenance dollars the historic maintenance numbers will not tell us what we need to know.
The Lt. Governor asked for comments from Commission members. Wayne Sanstead provided the Commission a handout (attached). Sanstead said the Commission should start with those in need i.e. high poverty students. There is tutoring money in the base and that money is for struggling students. Lemer asked if we are going to have a way to ensure that the money is spent the way we want it to be spent, should we not pull base money for tutors and put it into categorically payment? Burns said in the report tutoring is not part of the base funding. Odden said it was built into the base; it includes one tutor in every school and one tutor for every 125 at risk.
The Lt. Governor said the Commission needs to review some policy areas. He said one area the Commission is going to struggle with until the last minute is the at-risk factor; there are several different pieces to that. The Lt. Governor said so far the discussion has been favorable to mentors and tutors. We also have a reasonably good summer school factor but we could get more out of summer school. The Lt. Governor said the extended day concept has not caught on yet. The factor we come up with will be a measure of how the Commission responds to the initiatives.
For the extended day program the factor recommended is .132. There are programmatic problems with the extended day, such as, transportation and staff with other commitments within the school. Johnson said there is a good extended day program in Beach, with a good overview of procedure. They used a grant to fund the program. The Beach model does not provide for transportation and if it were not funded at the current level they would not be able to continue. They do have staffing issues and require outside grant funding.
Sanstead asked about the Picus and Odden opinion on extended day. Odden said extended day programs provide large improvements in learning. They all have some version of extra outside help. All the programs vary. Three types of extra help can make a difference - extra help during the school day; extra help outside of the school day; and extra help outside the school year (summer). Maus said there was an extended day program at Grafton for 11 years. They couldn’t hire teachers so they hired paraprofessionals or students to watch over kids. Sen. Flakoll asked Odden how he would prioritize the extended day initiative compared to the other initiatives the Commission has talked about. Sen. Flakoll asked about the return on investment. Odden said the ranking would be professional development, tutoring, and summer school. Privratsky said after school programs are being paid with federal dollars (Title I dollars). Rep. Kelsch said there is not a program across the state that is run the same. If we did create a program, we would want them to be run the same. There needs to be a model. The Lt. Governor said accountability is an issue with all these things, but extended day seems to be the worst. The Lt. Governor said the summer school factor is okay, but we can improve the program and encourage more remediation. There needs to be less convenience for attending summer school. The Commission has asked DPI to extend summer school to include social studies and science. There was good consensus from DPI on that request. Rep. Monson said there is not a problem with the convenience of summer school. If a student takes a courses to free up more time during the year, there is nothing wrong with that. He said instruction should be given to DPI that if a school wants to offer summer school, then it should be funded.
The Lt. Governor asked the Commission how it feels about supporting the expansion of tutoring in ND, e.g., grant program vs. some sort of factor with requirement for a program. Rep. Monson said the factor is a big enough carrot that if you tell a school district it will receive an additional factor if they hire a tutor, they will. The Lt. Governor asked whether the tutor should be a certified teacher to receive the additional factor? Lemer asked if one tutor per school was sufficient for a 400 student elementary school? Lemer said a small district should have one tutor per district. Lemer said he would recommend, through statute or rule, to come up with a list of acceptable criteria for a state funded tutoring program. He suggested a list be created of allowable programs and through a reporting mechanism they could let us know what programs they offer. The Lt. Governor said a factor would imply specific program requirements. There are certain elements the Commission might want to weigh in on. Sen. Flakoll asked if there is a point where tutors are not needed? Burns said the report laid out the option of flexibility very well. We don’t always have to look at this as 1-1 tutoring, but maybe one tutor for more than one kid, or for students who just need to keep up with schoolwork. Burns said tutors are hugely effective and he can’t imagine tutors running out of things to do. Sen. Flakoll said the duty of the tutor should not just be limited to at-risk students, but rather should be open to everyone. Sen. Flakoll asked that when writing rules for tutors, to please include all students. The Lt. Governor said if budget considerations require us to budget tutors at a certain amount, he would see a need for part-time tutor assistances. Rep. Monson said it is very possible and that in fact, in smaller schools that’s what might happen. Maus said staffing would not be an issue, as long as there is flexibility and the teacher does not have to hold a certain degree. Stremick said a tutor program would run $35 million for the biennium. A small school would get $33,000 for tutors. Sen. Flakoll asked how many FTEs does this translate to statewide? Odden said they did not figure that out. Lt. Governor asked how the Commission should compare the priority of tutors to mentors and coaches. The Lt. Governor said initially the Commission thought $1 million would be good to run a mentor program and ESPB suggested $3 million for a mentor program. Johnson said the cost for a mentor program may have a more direct return than a tutor program. Johnson said a mentor program would be good because it would help bring in new teachers and retain them. The Commission should consider $3 million vs. $35 million. Rep. Kelsch said coaching and tutoring are two different concepts. Coaching is to coach the teachers and tutoring is to tutor the students. Schock said that with flexibility, he could see that working well. Lemer said he is okay with flexibility with at-risk populations but not comfortable with flexibility with coaching and tutoring. He added, “at this time I don’t think we should make a forced choice between coaching and tutoring.” Burns said the state has an interest to see this is done right. If we invest theses resources, it is critical we have an application process.
The Lt. Governor addressed additional support. The Commission previously talked about carving out a portion of counseling staff for career advisors. One-third of the counseling staff may be career advisors. Career advisors may be allowed to have a different type of certification from CTE. The Lt. Governor asked if the report weighted the counseling area. Odden said that it is intended to be flexible dollars. The Lt. Governor asked what does the Commission expect for the counselors and career advisors? Lemer said we need to put money into career advising. The Commission needs to put into place with CTE what it needs to certify the in area of career advisement. Counseling today is a one counselor per 400 student ratio. Lemer said we have a better recommendation for counseling in the base for the future than we have today. Sen. Flakoll said we have to be very specific that schools do not use at-risk money for counselors. Lemer said what we are doing with this factor is trying to get districts to get the additional pupil support services that are needed for the student to succeed. The Lt. Governor said we do we need to be concerned about the accountability. Odden said the practice is to not under spend on the additional support services. Johnson said filling 250 counseling positions will be difficult. For now, we can use career advisors to fill staff requirements. The Lt. Governor said we can have one-third of the counseling staff be career advisors, we just need to get the certification done. Kutzer said we could get career advisors trained in two years. Lemer said we need to ramp up the strategy for counselors and career advisors and create a schedule to incorporate counselors and careers advisors into the schools. After three years counselors and career advisors would be required to receive funding. Johnson said this would be a good opportunity for reporting back to the legislative group on what is working and what is not. Maus said it will be hard for us to find counselors; they are required to have more education than our principals. Career advisors are an easier way to meet the requirement. Kutzer said there are enough people interested in the career advisor jobs but that filling counselors will be tough. Maus said you might find career advisors that are current teachers or who have a teaching degree but doesn’t work in the school district. The Lt. Governor asked about a CTE certification leading up to licensure. Burns said it was worth looking at. Rep. Kelsch said maybe starting out we could be more lenient, but there would be license and process. We would likely have a hard time filling counseling positions and would need to get them in sooner than later.
The Assessment Subcommittee Chair, Paul Stremick, said districts should be required to provide a formative/interim assessment or have a deduct from the formula. The NWEA is at the top of the list. Stremick also said students should be required to take a Career Interest Inventory (CII); either Choices (free), or PLAN ($8.50/student). There would be no opt out provisions or deduct in formula. The subcommittee also agreed that the ACT or WorkKeys be “required” and would be paid for by the state. Stremick said the subcommittee did not address the PSAT. Stremick said we need to get a list of formative tests approved by DPI. The list of CII should be approved by CTE. The Lt. Governor said in terms of administration, CTE would have an approved list of tests and there would be flexibility. We need to connect test results to the career advisor piece. Rep. Mason said teachers and schools will want to make use of test data. The Lt. Governor said the Fargo public schools and UND have done a statistical analysis and have established a predictive model where NWEA results can predict an ACT score. This technique would be made available to every district. The Lt. Governor said the Commission needs to make sure there is predictive value. Johnson said for statute writing purposes we need to clarify what Fargo public schools is doing with their model. Anita Thomas said there should not be a problem in writing the statute. There does not have to be a list specifying what tools will be used. Martinson said if the ACT is given during the school day, the state would pay for it. Lt. Governor said there are legislators who are interested in offering WorkKeys, and asked what happens for a student who doesn’t manage to get one of the three tests done? Rep Kelsch said she does not see why students wouldn’t take the test, especially if it is free and during the day.
The Curriculum Subcommittee chair, Sen. Flakoll, presented an updated ND Merit Plan. Flakoll said there are incentives we still want to provide for students and schools. The Lt. Governor asked whether there was more thought on tuition aid. Sen. Flakoll said the proposed tuition aid has changed from $6 million to $40 million. The tuition will depend on how many dollars are in the grant program. Rep. Monson asked how many states have graduated type diplomas and how many do they have? Johnson said Indiana has four and South Dakota has three. Sen. Flakoll brought up the issue of requiring math during the senior year. Privratsky said that taking math the senior year is only for the academic honor diploma. Lt. Governor said that requiring math the senior year creates problems. We wouldn’t want to stop someone from taking math because they only can take it their senior year and forcing them to skip it their junior year. Do we even have five levels of math in the smaller schools? Maus said there is a possibility of taking five levels of math, especially with distance learning. Sen. Flakoll said it comes down to remediation and what the private sector is saying about not being prepared.
Sen. Flakoll distributed a handout on transportation from the ND Legislative Council (see attachment). Rep. Monson said at this point in time, there is still a transportation payment. Sen. Flakoll said as a committee we have agreed there will be $5 million additional dollars for transportation.
The Professional Development (PD) Sub-committee Chair, Doug Johnson, updated the Commission on their decisions about PD: two student contact days, one PD day, and one day permission for early dismissal PD (four times per year). Odden suggested that Joellen Killion discuss the uses of the PD day. She would provide good leadership in this area to the Commission. Stremick said there are districts that do not belong to REAs. He said Dickinson participates in three PD days with REA but can never send 100% of staff to all three PD days. Maus said to keep in mind that all school districts are not the same. Martinson said there has been more criticism about poor PD in the state and if we could get access to a professional, that would be great. The Lt. Governor asked the Commission if they would like to bring Killion to ND. The Commission agreed; it would like to spend a day with Killion. Johnson and Burns created a model for coaching and PD (see attachment). The Lt. Governor asked if the matching money would come from the REA as a whole. Johnson said if school districts want to participate they would have to determine who would pay. The Lt. Governor asked if the Commission is envisioning two pilot programs. Johnson said there would be $500,000 for one REA for one year. Stremick said he liked the idea of the match. He did have reservations about being “certified.” Burns said that is why we said “highly recommended.” Johnson said this does not include salary money. The Lt. Governor had some questions for the future. What is the cost of the program? What does it look like? What does the budget entail? How many coaches? How many days? Maus said he would like to see two pilot programs. Lemer asked about the maturity of a program after one year. He asked if we should we make longer commitments and if this needs to be a multi-year effort. Burns asked how we would bind people over several legislative sessions.
The Formula Sub-committee Chair, Mark Lemer, updated the Commission on the two models: 1) Dollars we have today; and, 2) $300 million infusion. The Subcommittee is working on a model – formula restriction and weighted factors. The Lt. Governor said there are a few issues the Commission is wrestling with: property tax relief – dollar for dollar reduction; and, the amount of mill levy reduction. The Commission needs to determine the minimum and maximum levy reduction levels. Lemer said there needs to be uniformity among school districts. Lemer said there is an anticipated $100 million of aid going into formula and districts will be impacted. The Lt. Governor asked if state funds are at a higher percentage, what are the implications for the equity payment? The Lt. Governor said right now we are only funding 90% of the statewide average. With the same dollars we are using today we could take that percentage higher, however we are still trying to figure this out. The statewide average should exceed 100%. Lemer said there is a full foundation model where the state comes up with a funding level that would guarantee adequate education. The funding level would be a mix of state and local funding. Whatever the district couldn’t pay the state would make up. The Lt. Governor said when creating the dream formula, the problem arises of outside income not being part of the equity payment, but it becomes part of the main formula. The question is, does the Commission want to bring forward one proposal or more than one? Lemer said the subcommittee wants to bring forward only one proposal as a recommendation of the Commission.
The Lt. Governor said we are receiving a lot of help from Jerry in DPI. “Thanks Wayne, we really appreciate it.”
Tom, the Superintendant from Kulm, said the PD alone would make a huge difference in education in ND. He also said it is important for small schools to be accessible. Some kids ride the bus for over an hour each day.
Wayne Kutzer from CTE addressed the tiered diploma. He said it is designed to better prepare students, but may send the wrong message to students and parents. There are no CTE courses in the honors program. Already, too many students attend four year colleges, and if there is an added incentive for technical honor, like academic honors, it might be a different story. He read a letter from a concerned administrator. Kutzer said many small schools in the state would not have the programs or access to courses for the CTE track. Rep. Kelsch said that ND is behind other states. She also said students who would be in the honor track are in a current honors program and students who would choose a CTE track are already in CTE courses. The Lt. Governor asked Wayne to give the Commission some options for developing the CTE curriculum. A list of what courses are commonly taken now would be helpful.
Dean Koppleman from Valley City said he appreciated all the work the Commission does for the state and our children. He said the tiered diploma is out-of-the-box thinking. He asked for clarification about the “electronic delivery.”
The Lt. Governor asked Rep. Kelsch for an update on the Pre-K Subcommittee. Rep. Kelsch reported there was a Pre-K – conference call with interested parties. There is a Subcommittee meeting Sept 24th and she will have a report for the October meeting.
The Lt. Governor handed out a statement on the report from the Commission. The Commission approved the statement and will be used as needed.
The next scheduled meeting is October 7th in Minot.
Lt. Governor Jack Dalrymple adjourned the meeting at 3:08 pm.
